Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...

From:

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>

Newsgroups:

comp.lang.java.programmer

Date:

Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:54:21 -0400

Message-ID:

<513e5291$0$32106$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

On 3/8/2013 4:49 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

On 03/07/2013 10:24 PM, Arne Vajh?j wrote:

On 3/7/2013 7:28 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

On 03/07/2013 12:41 PM, Arne Vajh?j wrote:

On 3/7/2013 5:39 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

My next big Java-space web app development effort is going to be
shifting away from JSF. I've been using the framework for 8 or 9
years,
and I'm unhappy with it.

[ SNIP ]

Sounds as if you may like RoR.

:-)

Maybe, maybe not. When I said that my web work was basically mostly or
all CRUD, I was overly simplifying. While ultimately it *is* mostly
CRUD, there are always business rules and workflow associated with what
CRUD is going to happen, so the pages may be complex and not just
straightforward list+add+delete+edit RoR-type pages. Mind you, I only
looked at RoR once and casually about 3 or 4 years ago.

It might be more accurate for me to say that the web page actions are
always CRUD-like, they are affecting state of something. That might be
session state, view state, JPA extended state, or database state (upon a
commit). Doesn't really matter what state it is.

But the generated HTML might be - often is - quite complex. Not
predictable by any scaffolding type system.

What I'm getting at is, it seems to me like everyone out there who built
a web framework got fixated on the idea that you have to have page
templates *and* code behind. Different artifacts altogether, and you
always need two or more to implement a delivered page. And considering
how tightly bound these pairs of template + codebehind usually are, why
do we have two artifacts anyway? Separation of concerns? No, the things
are inextricably bound together. Ease of development or maintenance? Not
bloody likely - you're forever jumping between at least two source files
to get things done.

So why not just have a single code artifact that implements a page?
That's one of my arguments.

It is possible to write plain JSP or PHP with all the code embedded in
the page.

It is usually not considered good, because you mix the UI layout
and the code.

Web frameworks and desktop frameworks (WPF, JavaFX) have been
moving away from that for years.

But the benefit of the separation builds on an assumption that
they will be modified independently - potentially by different teams.

That's right, that's the expressed reason for this kind of split.

That may make sense in large public facing web sites.

But in an admin web GUI for some business app exposing some basic CRUD
functionality, then it will often be the same person modifying both at
the same time.

As you noted, there is a class of web apps where different people
develop and maintain presentation artifacts, and other people work on
code. Often graphics designers are involved, a full-blown CMS is in
play, etc etc.

But there are also a great number of business apps where, as you noted
again, it is the same people creating and modifying everything. All
developers. There's no advantage - to me, anyway - of having a separate
page template, and it's actually a hindrance. I gain nothing in
visualization from having the XHTML template, since it often deviates
from the rendered output significantly enough that you have to run the
app and view in the browser anyhow.

I just have a feeling that you will not be happy with an
all code embedded solution either.

Never know until you try. :-)

True.

But still.

Or if you want to stick in the Java world (not counting
RoR with JRuby) one of:
* Spring Roo
* Myclipse Spring MVC scaffolding
* Myclipse GWT Spring scaffolding

Disclaimer: I have never used any of these, so I have no idea how
good or bad they are.

I still need to do a lot of research. I am not sure anyone has produced
what I am looking for.

That will depend on how perfect a match you are looking for.

If it's all code I'll at least take a look. If it uses separate page
templates then it's invariably same-old, same-old. But it doesn't
otherwise have to be a perfect fit.

If you need more that the very simple DB CRUD, then scaffolding will
not solve your problem.

But in the RoR and clones world they are not as afraid of <% %> as
in the Java world.

Arne